“Well, he seemed like – he just seemed like the world was at his finger tips and everything was always perfect all the time.” *

* (restored)

 

Interview with Eve Babitz
Conducted by Paul Karlstrom
At her home in Hollywood, California
June 14, 2000

 

PAUL KARLSTROM: Why don’t you –

EVE BABITZ: I thought of myself as, I was like an art groupie/art model and I wanted to-I never modeled for anything like that and never again did, and really most artists, you know, when they have models they really are drawing them basically, like in sculptures, not taking photographs, so I don’t know who-and it wasn’t Duchamp’s idea so I figured I was the artist and the model in that one.

KARLSTROM: Why don’t you tell me just, you know, what led up to it, how it came about?

BABITZ: Well, the photographer Julian Wasser came and there was the-they had the big party at the Green Hotel, even though Julian doesn’t remember it; he has photographs that he took there at that time. And so I didn’t get invited to it because Walter Hopps [curator of Duchamp retrospective at Pasadena Art Museum, 1963] was mad at me.

MR. KARLSTROM: Why was that?

MS. BABITZ: Because his wife was in town, basically.

MR. KARLSTROM: Is that Shirley? [Art historian later married to dealer Irving Blum.]

MS. BABITZ: Yes. I mean she came back, she suddenly did come back in a flash the minute that Duchamp thing happened and I was like not allowed in. So, but then I found out Jim Elliott wasn’t invited either, so maybe nobody under 20, maybe 21, under 21 you weren’t allowed in. So, so, he didn’t invite me, so, and he wouldn’t call me back, and he wouldn’t call my mother back. And so I decided that if I could ever, like, you know, create any vengeance or havoc in his life I would, even though I was pretty powerless because I was only 20 and there was no way I could get to him. But, this Julian came up to me at the opening, the public opening, which I went to with my parents and-

MR. KARLSTROM: That was at the museum?

MS. BABITZ: Yeah. At the Pasadena Art Museum, and he said he had this great idea that I should play chess naked with Marcel Duchamp and it seem to be such a great idea that it was just like the best idea I’d ever heard in my life. It was like a great idea. I mean, it was, not only was it vengeance, it was art, and it was like a great idea. And even if it didn’t get any vengeance, it would still turn out okay with me because, you know, it would be sort of immortalized. I would be this, you know, here’s this Nude Descending the Staircase guy and now he’s going to be The Nude in the Pasadena Art Museum. But, of course, I said, you know, I didn’t think that the Pasadena Art Museum old ladies would go along with this. So-

MR. KARLSTROM: Was that part of what attracted you to the idea?

MS. BABITZ: Yes. Yeah, because it was like the Little Old Ladies from Pasadena, you know that Beach Boys’ song.

MR. KARLSTROM: Right.

 

Eve Babitz

 

MS. BABITZ: So, I thought well, you know, this will be, you know, and it is kind of like, you know, it’ll just kill them to find out that this happened there. So, but, I thought that he should tell Walter so Walter would know what we were doing, that we were going to do this. Because, it didn’t seem like-I mean, it was okay to do it, but they ought to know basically. But, I know that Julian did not tell anybody because he probably forgot it the minute he agreed to do it. But he did call me the next day and say “Now, you’re not going to chicken out are you?” Because we were supposed to do this two or three days later when they came back from Las Vegas, maybe the next day. They went to Las Vegas; they came back, Duchamp shows up at like, I don’t know, it was a Thursday morning or something. It was like seven o’clock. Julian comes to get me at, like, seven in the morning. We drive out to Pasadena to create this, you know, rape.

KARLSTROM: And Duchamp didn’t know what he had in mind either?

BABITZ: And he brought, and he said “Put that chess table there”. You know, we’re going to do the chess table. So, Duchamp, he had no idea. I mean that maybe he would of chosen someone else basically. He’d never met me before.

MR. KARLSTROM: Oh, I don’t know, you look pretty good.

MS. BABITZ: He’d never met me before. I’d never met him before.

MR. KARLSTROM: Did you know who he was though?

MS. BABITZ: No, I didn’t know who-I mean, I had an idea when I went to the art opening that he was probably great. He was one of those great people like-

MR. KARLSTROM: But you hadn’t heard of him before?

MS. BABITZ: No. I mean I’d never heard of anybody except Ed Kienholz. That was as far as my-I knew who Ed Kienholz was and I thought he was great. So, I didn’t even know who Joseph Cornell was at that time. So, and I knew that everybody was like in love with him because they had this huge party and they had two ballrooms and two bands. That I didn’t get invited to.

KARLSTROM: Uh-uh.

BABITZ: So Julian sets up lights for a million years and I’m sitting there, like nothing to do, smoking cigarettes. Like, 8:30 or 8:15, Duchamp shows up with his beautiful suit and that hat from Las Vegas, that straw hat.

KARLSTROM: Did the museum engage in-

BABITZ: -the people who were in there were teamsters marching back and forth with big pieces of art. That’s who was looking at this.

KARLSTROM: So you had an audience?

BABITZ: Yes.

KARLSTROM: It was like a performance piece?

BABITZ: That’s right.

KARLSTROM: Did you feel that way about it?

BABITZ: Yes.

 

Marcel Duchamp and Walter Hopps at the Pasadena Art Museum

 

KARLSTROM: That’s cool. You actually were in many respects the artist, but, on the other hand, the concept [that] was Julian [was watching you]?

BABITZ: Right, but he didn’t think that anyone would go along with it, because he’s always thinking up ways to get girls to take off their clothes.

KARLSTROM: So he had-this is interesting because you said you hadn’t modeled, but, in fact, you had, you posed nude for Julian.

BABITZ: Not-

KARLSTROM: At least on, what was that? Several times?

BABITZ: Well, no, once.

KARLSTROM: Just once.

BABITZ: And it wasn’t posing.

KARLSTROM: Then what were you doing?

BABITZ: It was getting naked pictures of yourself so you could show guys.

KARLSTROM: Oh, I see. So that’s what you were doing?

BABITZ: That’s right.

KARLSTROM: And you said, “Julian I need some naked-”

BABITZ: I don’t want to go, like, work in some horrible magazine. This is what all girls did at that time.

KARLSTROM: And so you wanted to have naked pictures of yourself to show guys?

BABITZ: Gorgeous ones.

KARLSTROM: Yeah, gorgeous, right.

BABITZ: Yes. That’s right. Gorgeous-

KARLSTROM: Because you were proud of your body.

BABITZ: Right.

KARLSTROM: Why did he choose you then for this, what turned into an extremely famous photo session? You playing chess.

BABITZ: Because he likes me.

KARLSTROM: You were friends?

BABITZ: Yeah.

KARLSTROM: He said you would be the best.

BABITZ: And he knew I wanted, you know, he wanted me to be part of this deal and I wouldn’t go to the party with him when he wanted to take me because Walter didn’t invite me.

 

Julian Wasser

 

KARLSTROM: So, what were you, Walter’s girlfriend or something?

BABITZ: I thought I-I deserved respect.

KARLSTROM: I would say. This story is much more interesting than-

BABITZ: That’s right. I was 20 years old and I wasn’t invited to this party. So, I took these pictures. That was it. You know, I got to Duchamp. We started playing chess.

KARLSTROM: Was that the first thing you did? That’s how this photo session started?

BABITZ: Yes.

KARLSTROM: Did he seem sort of taken aback when you took off your shirt?

BABITZ: No. He floated into it.

KARLSTROM: What did you do? Did you just go by the chair and take off your shirt?

BABITZ: No. He said, Julian said, “Okay, blah, blah, blah” You know, sit down [inaudible] you know, [inaudible]. “Okay, Eve, take that shirt off”. There was the chess table. Duchamp goes to the two little chess pieces. Julian kicks that shirt like 30 feet away, so I have nothing on.

KARLSTROM: Was it fun?

MS. BABITZ: It was hot. I was sweating like a Lakers game.

KARLSTROM: You mean it was hot in there?

BABITZ: I was sweating. No one else was. Everybody else was delightfully cool.

KARLSTROM: But you enjoyed it?

BABITZ: Well, it was-I mean it was like work, I’ll tell you and I don’t like work. Work is not my thing.

KARLSTROM: And so Marcel just took it in stride.

BABITZ: Yeah. He beat me three times.

KARLSTROM: Are you a good chess player?

BABITZ: No. Horrible.

KARLSTROM: Oh.

BABITZ: Obviously.

KARLSTROM: Because he’s supposed to be. I guess he was brilliant.

BABITZ: I know.

KARLSTROM: Did you-so most of the photos-I mean, we seen the proof sheet like reproduced during West Coast Duchamp, that book, you know.

BABITZ: I thought he only spoke French. I had no idea he spoke English so I tried to speak French to him. I asked him if he knew Mr. Stravinsky, the name of my godfather, and he said yes that he had been to that 1910 Firebird suite thing in Paris.

KARLSTROM: Did he seem sort of impressed that you had that connection?

BABITZ: Well, he seemed like-he just seemed like the world was at his finger tips and everything was always perfect all the time.

KARLSTROM: Sort of everything-

BABITZ: He wasn’t losing chess, at chess.

KARLSTROM: Well you didn’t care did you?

BABITZ: No, I didn’t really care. I wanted to get it over with.

KARLSTROM: And you wanted to get your clothes back on.

BABITZ: Right.

KARLSTROM: So you basically-

BABITZ: I wanted my cigarettes. I wanted my glasses. I wanted my clothes on; I wanted Julian to take me to a Chinese restaurant.

KARLSTROM: So you-

BABITZ: I knew exactly the one he wanted to go too. Chow Yung Fat. It’s down on Main Street.

KARLSTROM: So you really weren’t all that comfortable?

BABITZ: No. No.

KARLSTROM: But it was worth it.

BABITZ: It was worth it because Walter came in and he dropped his gum.

KARLSTROM: So Walter actually came in to see how it was going.

BABITZ: Yeah.

KARLSTROM: And he didn’t even know you were there.

BABITZ: No.

KARLSTROM: Wow. So you won.

BABITZ: Yeah.

 

Pasadena Art Museum 1973

 

KARLSTROM: You didn’t win at chess.

BABITZ: No.

KARLSTROM: But you won in terms of taking control of the situation.

BABITZ: That’s right.

KARLSTROM: I mean, did you think of it a little bit that way? Because I’m thinking of motivation.

BABITZ: I said, “Hello, Walter” and he dropped his gum.

KARLSTROM: Literally?

BABITZ: Yes. He always chewed Double Mint gum.

KARLSTROM: So what, did he hang out and watch?

BABITZ: No. He was even more ashen than he already was. He ran into his office-

KARLSTROM: Did it work?

BABITZ: Did it work? Yes.

KARLSTROM: Because you did get back, I mean-

BABITZ: Yes.

KARLSTROM: It sort of rekindled Walter’s interest?

BABITZ: It made him return my phone calls, which was what I wanted out of life.

KARLSTROM: Isn’t it interesting. This famous-this is actually one of the most famous photographs certainly in California art history.

BABITZ: I know, I know, and the reason is so bad. So bad.

KARLSTROM: What did you talk with Duchamp about? You said that the-

BABITZ: About the Firebird Suite.

KARLSTROM: That was the main thing?

BABITZ: Yeah. I mean, I just was basically sweating and wishing it was over and I couldn’t believe he had beat me three times in [inaudible] spades which mean you move like two pieces and then the person check mates you.

KARLSTROM: And you never got anything out of it? Except fame.

BABITZ: Except, you know, my usual fame.

KARLSTROM: Fame and a little bit of power over Walter.

BABITZ: That’s right.

KARLSTROM: And so you really had nothing to do particularly with Marcel Duchamp.

BABITZ: No. No. No.

KARLSTROM: There was no-you were both models is what it amounts to.

BABITZ: That’s right. Right. Right.

KARLSTROM: And he had his clothes on.

BABITZ: It had to do with Walter.

KARLSTROM: How did you feel, maybe not so much in that situation, but perhaps, about your own sexuality? Were you sort of very much aware of that at that stage? You were 20 years old. Did you have that kind of self-awareness or self-consciousness as a sexual young woman?

BABITZ: Yes.

KARLSTROM: Yes.

BABITZ: I went to Hollywood High.

Outtake

 

KARLSTROM: So you thought it was a pretty weird thing-

BABITZ: Yes. I did.

KARLSTROM: So it wasn’t-

BABITZ: I mean he was old, you know.

KARLSTROM: Okay, what about that?

BABITZ: It was like kind of depressing.

KARLSTROM: Really?

BABITZ: Yeah.

KARLSTROM: Tell me about that. Tell me how you felt about that. That’s interesting. Because that suggests a kind of connection in a relationship, at least visual, between you and your self-conception, then brings in your partners shall we say. How did you feel about that? You said he was old.

BABITZ: Well, I mean, I just, I mean he was old and he was too old for me.

KARLSTROM: Okay. Well, but you know what that suggests is very interesting to me. Taking off your clothes and, in a sense, because you were paired with him that there was that, even a sexual connotation to him. Is that right?

BABITZ: Yes, there wasn’t a sexual connotation.

KARLSTROM: There wasn’t?

BABITZ: That’s right.

KARLSTROM: But still you said that he was too old for you.

BABITZ: Right. That’s right. He was, I mean, it was like, I mean, if he were like, you know, Nureyer, you know, and some sort of like insanely gorgeous looking, you know, stunning type of person like that it would have been much more fun.

KARLSTROM: Well, you see what that implies. That does suggest –

BABITZ: That I’m a shallow person?

KARLSTROM: No. No.

BABITZ: I am a shallow person.

KARLSTROM: No, Eve, that’s not what I’m suggesting. But if you are, you are.

BABITZ: I would be much more eager to show it to my friends. But now I’m glad it wasn’t. As I’ve grown older I’ve realized that it was like a smart move.

KARLSTROM: You would have preferred a James Dean.

BABITZ: Right.

KARLSTROM: Then, you would of really-

BABITZ: Then I would’ve shown my friends.

KARLSTROM: So it wasn’t you being naked that you were unhappy with.

BABITZ: No.

KARLSTROM: It was about being paired with this old guy.

BABITZ: That’s right.

KARLSTROM: I understand.

BABITZ: How would you like it? I mean, if it were like Louise Nevelson or something and you were 20 years old?

 

 

*

p.s. Hey. I’m away from the blog until Tuesday.